Survival Group Mix

[RICHFL]

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I expect there will be a lot of personal opinions about this subject of Weapons and ammo. This discussion is about types and numbers not about the better AR vs. AK debate!


1. Your group when first formed will come together with weapons already bought and ammo. You need to discuss and decide upon what will you use in common for security, and hunting firearms.

- - People come in different sizes from youths of 12 years old to men/women over 70 - Each must be able to use weapons.

- - Some People have a lot of training and are experts with their weapons and others will never have fired a weapon in their lives.

- - Training is the number one requirement: See what your group can use by taking them to the rifle range and firing static targets various caliber weapons. Shotguns from .410, 20., and .12 gauge. Rifles use .223 to .338. Pistol/Auto from 9 mm to .45 APC. See what the group can score both individually and together. Most people can handle the recoil of .233 and the 7.62x39 rounds for rifles. Shotgun gauge depends on weight of the individual and training. Pistol/Auto's are the hardest to train to use and take a lot of ammo to get people comfortable in handling them.

2. What does your group need in numbers.

For a small group 10 or less we came up with these numbers. Because not all weapons well be available at any one time, due to cleaning/maintenance; we need additional weapons among the group.

1 shotgun .12 gauge per 2 people = 5 Make 3 .12 and 2 .20 gauge use only 2 3/4" shells. (1 rifled barrel for each gauge)

1 rifle per person = 10 Make 6 security weapons same caliber, 3 hunting rifles bolt action (use as sniper weapons as needed), 1 .22LR for small game hunting

1 Pistol/Auto per person = 12 Make 10 security weapons same caliber, 2 .22 LR for small game and security purposes.

Hint - While bugging out; You want to remain hidden from others around you, do not get involved in their problems, or they will become your own! Stay away from weapons firing unless it is at your retreat.

3. Total amount of ammo:

Shotgun rounds: We settled on having just over 500 rounds in various loads for hunting and security. Shotgun Ammo is mostly used for hunting so you need everything from Rifle slugs to #6 bird shot.

Rifle rounds: Hunting you need a minimum of 200 rounds. For security a minimum of 500 most for training.

Pistol/Auto rounds: You need to continue training at least once a month to remain comfortable with it. Minimum of 50 round per month training and additionally 100 rounds for security.

If you are bugging out then you need 1 pistol each, one rifle/shotgun per person. Ammo depends again for how long will you be moving to your retreat. Remember ammo/weapons take up space that will not be used daily and is for security only. At Camping sites along your way to your retreat; if longer then 1 day you may want to preposition ammo for resupply. You may be in a running gun fight that can take days to finish or may be over with in 5 minutes.

At your retreat you need to have enough ammo to last you years of hunting and for security purposes. I do not mean tons of ammo; but you do need the ability to replace (RELOAD) the rounds you have used.

4. As your group grows so will the need for additional weapons.

Hint - -Using the same formula above for group of 25+ makes such a footprint that you will in fact draw the attention of those you want to stay away from. You have no choice but to put on the best defense possible both in bugging out and at your retreat. Only difference you arm all personnel with 1 pistol each and 1 rifle. Minimum of 3 sniper 2 man teams to cover both your group's advance and cover your back. A good sniper team can delay or remove threats from areas you are not prepared to cover.

Well enough on tactics that is for another day.

[myakka]

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Rich,
As usual it seems that you and your group have spent a lot of time and consideration planning well.
The only comment I would have is that the size, makeup, and location of the group might require "tweaking" to your choices.
because in a group the size of a town, (if there is such a thing) then you might be able to specialize more, or if your group is located in a suburb you know there will be no hunting and therefore would focus more on protection.
Of course, such precise choices are for the fairly advanced plan.
Seeing how your group chose, should help others while they are developing.

This list is a terrific basic guide. Thanks for posting it.

[RICHFL]

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Rich,

because in a group the size of a town, (if there is such a thing) then you might be able to specialize more, or if your group is located in a suburb you know there will be no hunting and therefore would focus more on protection.

OK This was developed between 3 groups who have a vary loose relationship - this was mostly old GI's BS around over beers on a hunting weekend. We had our quotas filled so we sat drinking. Felt good at the time....
We never covered what if a town survived intact. But let me give you my idea for the next level of civilization.

If we go back into history for over 25 thousand years we survived in small wondering groups. It was not until we settled down to farm that these small groups started to come together. Men still went out to hunt while the women stayed to grow crops.

Once villages reached a certain size, people stepped forward to protect the village while others went about their business - - this was how the west here in the USA was developed. So even though the farmer was still armed he did not stand guard unless trouble was near by. He was a farmer. The law was handled by the village/town sheriff with a posse if needed. This was so the majority of people could concentrate on farming.

Can we start that way? Only if the town is tucked away from, and has limited access from outside people.

[Morgan101]

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RichFL good post. As always very well thought out . I would not discount training with a 22 pistol. It is an excellent way for new shooters or young and old to acquire good siting, grip, and trigger pull habits before moving up to larger calibers. Also ammo is inexpensive. Younger and older members may only be able to use a 22, so they should be proficient. Good post. Keep them coming.

[RICHFL]

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I looked at other firearm topics and all it was doing was opening a can of worms about which is better AR OR AK style weapons. So I did the topic a little different.

I still believe even after thinking about it for 24 hours that only a town with limited access will have a chance to survive. It must have its own water, farming, power production, and stabilizability to work. Some of the small towns in the mountains will work along with villages in rural areas with no major highways near by.

[Buggyout]

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I looked at other firearm topics and all it was doing was opening a can of worms about which is better AR OR AK style weapons. So I did the topic a little different.

I still believe even after thinking about it for 24 hours that only a town with limited access will have a chance to survive. It must have its own water, farming, power production, and stabilizability to work. Some of the small towns in the mountains will work along with villages in rural areas with no major highways near by.

I totally agree! If you have a city over 50,000 within walking distance, I'd say you were screwed. As far as AK vs. AR? I have both and will take my M1A any day of the week over.

- Buggy

[Big Guy]

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Training on firearms is extremely important. If you are in a group, start with what people already have and then start standardizing your collective arsenal. I completely agree with RICHFIL about the minimum ammount of ammunition needed, but keep in mind that it is the minimum you should have on hand. You should have a larger stock at your BOL for the extended periods.

Other skills should also be learned, hunting, gathering, construction, medical, farming, butchering, tanning, canning, drying meat, cobblers, people who can sew, logging, imbalming, and anything else you can come up with.

Weapons training is important for security but all other skills are also important. If you are cold, wet, starving, sick and lame you will not be able to defend yourself even with weapons and the skills to use them.

Just my opinion.

[bobwg]

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Hi when it comes to a large group 25+ would it be better to breakup into 2 smaller groups? possibly taking 2 different routes to the bug out location? or maybe having the second group following with some space between the 2 groups? just wondering

[Big Guy]

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Hi when it comes to a large group 25+ would it be better to breakup into 2 smaller groups? possibly taking 2 different routes to the bug out location? or maybe having the second group following with some space between the 2 groups? just wondering

I would suggest one large group with scouts up ahead and a rear security following behind. You will need a means of communication to coordinate between your main body, scouts and rear guard.

[Legion489]

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Well obviously you have thought this out, so my additions are more tweaking than changes. I would up the number, basically double the amounts, of ALL ammo. At a minimum. There is no such thing as "too much ammo", unless of course you need to move it, or are bugging out, then ANY is too much! I'd make sure any shotguns were chambered for 3" or even 3 1/2" shells. Do I intend to shoot 3"/3 1/2" shells? No. I paid good money for some fillings and I intend to keep them where they are, but if all I can find is 3" or whatever, I would be happier knowing I could shoot them. Get some "shell shrinker" chamber adapters and be ready to shoot 16, 20, 28 and .410 through the 12 ga and 28 and .410 in the 20 ga. for "just in case" use.

Get good scopes, slings, holsters (read "not the $5 fur lined plastic ones sold at gunshows") and reloading equipment. A good scope will run "about" $200, some are very good at a little less, some are just OK at a little (or lot) more, but consider that an average. Slings, $20 to $30 for some good ones, again there are great cheap ones and junky expensive ones, but buy quality. Holsters are personal, but the $20 Uncle Mike's/Fobus holsters aren't bad. They WILL crack or break if sat on with a gun in them or used hard, but for the money they are hard to beat and if you like them, you can afford several. Most pistol shooters have a box of used holsters that didn't work out, they might be what you are looking for however, so see if you can try the holsters some else has before buying, but again, BUY QUALITY!

Reloading presses are one item that some people get very upset about. One low cost (and LOW quality) brand of pot metal presses is often pushed for beginners, just setting the beginner up to fail. I know, because I have owned or tried all of the pot metal presses the company offers. The "hard wood ball" on the handle the company makes a big deal about falls after a few pulls of the handle, and the presses are basically low end trash. The dies from this company are as good as any however, I know because I own a LOT of them, and have been happy. If a company offers a worthless so called "two year warranty" that they don't intend to stand behind anyway, and every other company offers a life time warranty that they DO stand behind that should tell you something! Buy Dillon, RCBS, Redding, Forster, Lyman presses as they are all great presses. As to dies, Redding, Dillon and Forster are the BEST, but cost it too! Lee and RCBS are both excellent dies at good prices. Lyman offers dies for stuff you might never have heard of, especially the old, odd ball stuff.