First handgun dilemma: .22 or 9 mm

**snake35** · 05-06-2012, 09:34 AM

Buy both and use the .22 for cheap practice. worse case buy the .22 and planon multiple shots.

**myakka** · 05-06-2012, 09:48 AM

I see a lot of threads knocking 22lr, and I am certainly not saying it is the ONLY choice. i repeatedly put forth it is a tool in your tool box. Some jobs need a hammer, some a wrench. You might get by pounding with a wrench, but no matter how long you bang on a bolt, your hammer will never get it out.
Applied to weapons I mean this:
Figure out what you really feel you will be doing with the handgun. Everyday use, and post shtf. Then base your decision on that. I think of pistols as close range self-defense weapons. In that, I think the 22lr is OK. I challenge anyone on this site to relate an incident where they shot or were shot at with a 22lr at close range and it failed to change the situation. If it did fail then I will submit that it is because the shooter missed, not because it hit and the person "took it and kept coming."
For those that will jump in with a story of a crack-head that your cousin heard jump his girlfriend's brother's piano teacher's daughter...... I doubt that I will have a huge army of crack-heads stalking me. (Hopefully LOL)
I know hunters that regularly take large prey with 22lr. I have dropped hogs myself. I don't think people are as "tough" as feral hogs, and the 22lr would be effective as personnal defense.
We may be giving the scavangers too much credit anyway. The body armor wearing, military organized group scavanger is scary, but not realistic IMHO. I think anyone that organized and outfitted is probably a prepper, and won't necessarily be out raiding isolated farms. I think the much more likely person who will need "detering" will be the yahoo down the street that didnt do any prepping, and wakes up hungry. He will have a weapon, but will be looking for targets of opportunity, and as long a you have a firearm, you will not present as a soft target. I dont think I will have to defend a sustained attack, so much as make my homestead be the hardest, most unappealing nut to crack on the block. If a large, organized group feels there is some treasure at my place that is worth swimming upstream through a hail of bullets (any calibur) then I have failed on all kinds of opsec levels and will probably fail anyway.
Whew.... Sorry for the long post.

**Hummer** · 05-07-2012, 07:59 AM

I used to get the FBI Uniform Crime Reports and year after year the no 1 killer is 22. If I remember correctly no 2 was 30-30 but I haven't read any in maybe 15 years. I suspect you can probably pull them up on line.

We had a shooting in Spartanburg, SC back in 70s. This black couple was having a argument on the street and he slapped the girlfriend. She pulled a 22 revolver and let him hold six in the torso at three feet. They continued to argue for another fifteen minutes and he walked two miles to hospital.

I knew a lady in Russell, Alabama that sensed someone was behind her in bedroom doorway right after her husband had left for work. She pulled a Ruger MkII out spun and fired and guy left. Sheriff's deputy arrived followed soon by Sheriff himself. No bullet hole could be found. No blood trail, no body. Three weeks later a black guy that lived a mile or so down the road died. Autopsy showed a 22 LR bullet in the brain with fresh entrance wound.

I know a doctor who was in medical school and he was doing his thing on a dead guy. When he cut off top of skull he found two 00 buckshot inside. No new wound path.

I know another in Woodruff, SC who was at a beer joint and he thought he would beat up on this queer guy. He took a swing, hit him and next thing he knew he was looking down the muzzle of a 25ACP from the shootee end and his mouth was hurting. He said he spit out two teeth on the floor. I asked him what he did next. "I ran out the door and hid in the woods till the guy left.”
He still has the round that can be felt under the skin on right side of neck.

A cop I worked with walked in a black beer joint and he saw a guy pointing a 1911A1 at another guy and before he could say/do anything it went off. Knocked shootee back against bar who spat out four teeth and the 230 gr. FMJ on the floor. Shootee was still on his feet.

Got a game warden buddy who has been shot twice. Once in Kosovo with a 7.62X39 and once in Charleston, SC with a 45 ACP. He says the 45 hurt a whole lot more.

A Customs Patrol Officer I worked with (after the incident told to me ) shot this guy with a 1911A1 seven times and he was still coming he put the eighth round in shootees forehead which ended the incident. The first seven were in a 3" group dead center of chest. My friend was a member of the Marine Corps Pistol Team and held the Distinguished Pistol Award.

Knew another cop who was shot with a 22LR. Ballpoint pen in shirt pocket stopped the round cold and all had to get was a new pen and uniform shirt.

You can look this guy up on google. Jim Cirillo who was good freind and we went to IPSC rifle and pistol matches together and he was also a gun writer, firearms instructor at Fed Law Enf Tng Ctr and member of the NYPD stakeout squad in a previous life. He killed five with a 38Spec with his handloads while on the NYC squad in five different shootings.

He told me they had reports of units getting cement blocks dropped on them in this one NYC block so he took a Browning 22LR w/ scope ( take down model Browning) and put it in a suitcase and got a cab to the neighborhood and got on top of the highest building on the block. Most were 3/4 stories and he took out rifle and assembled it and turned on his handheld radio and waited.

A short while later he heard a call on that block and seconds later ten punks came out on roof top two buildings down and across the street and started hauling 8" blocks to front side of building. He saw the B&W pull onto the street and they all got ready to drop them and he opened up on them and shot till it was empty. They were all down screaming and he disassembled the Browning, picked up all his empties and went down stairs and out the back of the building and hailed a cab and went home. Later that day when he went to work he checked the hospital reports and no gunshots came in or deaths were reported which disappointed him but he also said no more cement block incidents occurred on that block again. Don't think you will find that story on google haha.

Bottom line is if you are real good you can be deadly with a 22LR. A good 22LR in match configuration with good ammo will allow one to hit Bayer Aspirin every shot at 50 yards and Alka Seltzer tablets at 100 yards and with such you can be very selective about shot placement (if you have time) and you can be very effective.

While 22 is the no 1 killer the problem lies is how quickly it works or fails to work thusly if you are in a certified party zone it may not be a viable tool if you are into the instant success mind set. Personally I would think a more effective round would be preferable but as stated above unless you operate effectively your noise signature is going to announce to the world for miles around that you are in play which may well be considered an invitation to play by personnel who you have forewarned your presence to and they will act accordingly to minimize their exposure. If you have a couple that run away with 22 lead in their rear end you can pretty well figure they will be back and they will be ready.

Think of all the discharged 11Bs since 1991 in this country. I suspect there are at least seven combat divisions walking about in civilian clothes with CIBS now who have been trained in how to approach and clear buildings especially at night.

One would hope they would not be part of the problem but when folks gets hungry you may well find yourself looking at some of the best trained military in the world coming to see you as members of the home shopping network. All the ones I know are solid and dependable and to be relied upon but then again you may gave graduates of the Univ of Leavenworth or Portsmith U in the mix.

**Sober** · 05-07-2012, 10:48 AM

Without a doubt this is one of the oldest dilemas in the handgun world. Personally i Would go with the 9mm as you already have a shotgun to use for small/large game. Very few people are very capable with a handgun, Although we all like to think we are, myself included. Get the 9 and practice as much as you can, get a good comfortable holster as well as mags and a mag pouch. Get. 22 later.
Hope this helps
Steve

**myakka** · 05-07-2012, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by Sober

Without a doubt this is one of the oldest dilemas in the handgun world. Personally i Would go with the 9mm as you already have a shotgun to use for small/large game. Very few people are very capable with a handgun, Although we all like to think we are, myself included. Get the 9 and practice as much as you can, get a good comfortable holster as well as mags and a mag pouch. Get. 22 later.
Hope this helps
Steve

Welcome aboard steve. Good first post. Glad you signed up.

**Buggyout** · 05-07-2012, 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by Hummer

I used to get the FBI Uniform Crime Reports and year after year the no 1 killer is 22. If I remember correctly no 2 was 30-30 but I haven't read any in maybe 15 years. I suspect you can probably pull them up on line.

We had a shooting in Spartanburg, SC back in 70s. This black couple was having a argument on the street and he slapped the girlfriend. She pulled a 22 revolver and let him hold six in the torso at three feet. They continued to argue for another fifteen minutes and he walked two miles to hospital.

I knew a lady in Russell, Alabama that sensed someone was behind her in bedroom doorway right after her husband had left for work. She pulled a Ruger MkII out spun and fired and guy left. Sheriff's deputy arrived followed soon by Sheriff himself. No bullet hole could be found. No blood trail, no body. Three weeks later a black guy that lived a mile or so down the road died. Autopsy showed a 22 LR bullet in the brain with fresh entrance wound.

I know a doctor who was in medical school and he was doing his thing on a dead guy. When he cut off top of skull he found two 00 buckshot inside. No new wound path.

I know another in Woodruff, SC who was at a beer joint and he thought he would beat up on this queer guy. He took a swing, hit him and next thing he knew he was looking down the muzzle of a 25ACP from the shootee end and his mouth was hurting. He said he spit out two teeth on the floor. I asked him what he did next. "I ran out the door and hid in the woods till the guy left.”
He still has the round that can be felt under the skin on right side of neck.

A cop I worked with walked in a black beer joint and he saw a guy pointing a 1911A1 at another guy and before he could say/do anything it went off. Knocked shootee back against bar who spat out four teeth and the 230 gr. FMJ on the floor. Shootee was still on his feet.

Got a game warden buddy who has been shot twice. Once in Kosovo with a 7.62X39 and once in Charleston, SC with a 45 ACP. He says the 45 hurt a whole lot more.

A Customs Patrol Officer I worked with (after the incident told to me ) shot this guy with a 1911A1 seven times and he was still coming he put the eighth round in shootees forehead which ended the incident. The first seven were in a 3" group dead center of chest. My friend was a member of the Marine Corps Pistol Team and held the Distinguished Pistol Award.

Knew another cop who was shot with a 22LR. Ballpoint pen in shirt pocket stopped the round cold and all had to get was a new pen and uniform shirt.

You can look this guy up on google. Jim Cirillo who was good freind and we went to IPSC rifle and pistol matches together and he was also a gun writer, firearms instructor at Fed Law Enf Tng Ctr and member of the NYPD stakeout squad in a previous life. He killed five with a 38Spec with his handloads while on the NYC squad in five different shootings.

He told me they had reports of units getting cement blocks dropped on them in this one NYC block so he took a Browning 22LR w/ scope ( take down model Browning) and put it in a suitcase and got a cab to the neighborhood and got on top of the highest building on the block. Most were 3/4 stories and he took out rifle and assembled it and turned on his handheld radio and waited.

A short while later he heard a call on that block and seconds later ten punks came out on roof top two buildings down and across the street and started hauling 8" blocks to front side of building. He saw the B&W pull onto the street and they all got ready to drop them and he opened up on them and shot till it was empty. They were all down screaming and he disassembled the Browning, picked up all his empties and went down stairs and out the back of the building and hailed a cab and went home. Later that day when he went to work he checked the hospital reports and no gunshots came in or deaths were reported which disappointed him but he also said no more cement block incidents occurred on that block again. Don't think you will find that story on google haha.

Bottom line is if you are real good you can be deadly with a 22LR. A good 22LR in match configuration with good ammo will allow one to hit Bayer Aspirin every shot at 50 yards and Alka Seltzer tablets at 100 yards and with such you can be very selective about shot placement (if you have time) and you can be very effective.

While 22 is the no 1 killer the problem lies is how quickly it works or fails to work thusly if you are in a certified party zone it may not be a viable tool if you are into the instant success mind set. Personally I would think a more effective round would be preferable but as stated above unless you operate effectively your noise signature is going to announce to the world for miles around that you are in play which may well be considered an invitation to play by personnel who you have forewarned your presence to and they will act accordingly to minimize their exposure. If you have a couple that run away with 22 lead in their rear end you can pretty well figure they will be back and they will be ready.

Think of all the discharged 11Bs since 1991 in this country. I suspect there are at least seven combat divisions walking about in civilian clothes with CIBS now who have been trained in how to approach and clear buildings especially at night.

One would hope they would not be part of the problem but when folks gets hungry you may well find yourself looking at some of the best trained military in the world coming to see you as members of the home shopping network. All the ones I know are solid and dependable and to be relied upon but then again you may gave graduates of the Univ of Leavenworth or Portsmith U in the mix.

So? You are advocating a .22LR as a defense round?

**Buggyout** · 05-07-2012, 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by Sober

Without a doubt this is one of the oldest dilemas in the handgun world. Personally i Would go with the 9mm as you already have a shotgun to use for small/large game. Very few people are very capable with a handgun, Although we all like to think we are, myself included. Get the 9 and practice as much as you can, get a good comfortable holster as well as mags and a mag pouch. Get. 22 later.
Hope this helps
Steve

This is very true. I have a loose estimate of 15000 rounds through my duty gun (G35). What surprises me the most is now that I am not qualifying 4 times a year, my skill has diminished considerably.

**ERDCO** · 05-07-2012, 10:13 PM

I myself keep a 9mm and a 38spl in the car but carry an LCP380 in the back pocket.

No matter what, pick something your gonna be comfortable wearing all the time.
If you don't carry it with you because it's big or heavy it's not much use.